Yesterday, in the comments section of my post about Minnesota weather, Clayton, Merrill, Brendan and Travis were debating the relative merits of outside baseball in various extreme climates.
In an effort to expand upon that debate, Brendan and I will debate whether or not Tropicana Field is a bad ballpark in this week’s Point-Counterpoint.
Brendan takes the Point: The Trop is a dump.
I take the Counterpoint: The Trop is a great place to watch a game.
I am so completely on the fence in this argument (which is totally not allowed in this country. If you don’t “pick a side” you are apparently the worst kind of evil…instead of being perspective…whatever)
Anyway, I have said before that I live near the Trop, which means I should support it in every way because it’s easy for me to get to games. And I do like the quirks of the ballpark (aka – character) and the fact it’s a dome (convertible would be better – open air is not an option). But as much as I like (not love) St Pete as a city, I can’t stand the location of the stadium from the angle of attracting casual fans around the region. My own friends and family (Pasco/Hernando/Citrus counties) who adore the Rays and watch as many games as me…or more…just can’t justify the trip, especially when there’s really nothing else to do besides the game around St. Pete. Ferg’s is great, and I’ve heard some other large venue opened up down and around there, but other than that, where’s the family draw…or the partying 20-35 year old draw…or the anything draw.
I’m just rambling now, the point is you are both correct, but Mark totally nailed the SNL atmosphere so he gets the edge for the discussion.
Merrill, YOU ignorant slut. I am with Brendan as usual, but neither master debater addressed one of the main issues with the stadium: the lack of revenue generation. Modern stadiums are built with big spenders in mind and when big spenders spend, your team has more money to spend on on-field talent. The Trop has an atrocious amenity level, even after the Stu Sternberg Experience gussied it up. That is the driving force behind the need for a new stadium. Selling $7 300-level seats is not going to make a difference in the long run. Add in the fact that no one ever brings up: the degradation of the essential systems of the building. The HVAC system in that place is ancient and they spend gobs of money every year patching it up. Maintaining a building as it’s falling apart is expensive. And it isn’t worth making major changes, because it is not the long-term solution. In summation, please move it closer to my house. The end.
To summarize. Move the Trop closer to Clayton’s house because the air-conditioner is old. Sweet logic.
Haha! I love it.
(Mark still won).
I think you just inadvertently admitted that you live in post-Biff gambling Hill Valley (which will the new official way to reference the Trop neighborhood on The Ray Area).
i hate the hill in houston, but you can’t compare that, or the monster in fenway, or the foul area in oakland, or the “wind” in the bronx to the catwalks. the catwalks have their own rules. you have to hit it over the fence in boston, it’s just closer and higher. you have more room to catch a foul in oakland, but the rules say if you catch a fly ball in foul territory, it’s an out. one of the things i love about baseball parks, is they aren’t uniform. it’s gonna take 405 to hit a home run to the same area on one field that would only take 385 on another. you have to play the gaps differently. the dirt is different. the grass is real, or maybe it’s artificial, or maybe it’s both? I love that about ballparks. you can’t just add things and make them distractions in play. this isn’t an old school MTV rock-n-jock league.
Maybe all tropicana field needs is a target over the centerfield wall that doubles the rbis for every home run that hits it. and Maybe instead of Joe Maddon, we should hire coach/player Bill Bellamy or Dan Cortese?
Doesn’t your argument about the Green Monster apply to the catwalks? You have to hit it over the fence but under the catwalk. If you hit it too high, then you need to hit over the catwalk and the fence. Both obstructions turn routine fly balls into hits or home runs into doubles.
Forget Rock and Jock. We need to hire the three guys that sit in The Reservation in Major League. Then they could say “too high too high” on all potential home runs without getting yelled at by Randy Quaid.
I love the catwalks so much, I once tried to convince my boss to pitch an alternative game hat that had four rings on it. Sort of a catwalk takeoff on those old LA Angels hats that had a halo on them.
the monster is just a bigger wall, obviously, but no new rules need to be put in play for it to exist. it’s not like there’s a “double line” and a “triple line”…the wall is in play like every other outfield wall between the posts in baseball. And Crawford and his .160 Batting Average will be patroling in front of the green fence up to 81 times this year. I like Carl, but if he’s gonna leave the rays and crap down his leg to start the next season, i’m glad it’s with the Sox.
“I like Carl, but if he’s gonna leave the Rays and crap down his leg to start the next season, I’m glad it’s with the Sox.” ROFLMAO Beautiful.
I’ll go one step further. I LIKED Carl.
A 50 pt. peach basket hanging from the ‘C’ ring would definitely make the catwalks more palatable.
I did like the do-over rule we had for 3 games, until Seilig went and ruined it.
As for the maintenance argument, maybe the FO should let the HVAC crap out so we could get a real feel for outdoor baseball in Florida. And… how does maintenance work anyway? Aren’t the Rays in a “use-agreement” with St. Pete?
I was wondering the same thing. I sure as hell hope that the city is paying for the upkeep of the Trop, or they really do have the worst lease ever.
Wow, did I just say I hope my taxes pay for my baseball team’s air conditioning? I didn’t mean it like that, but it sorta sounded like it…lemme phrase differently.
I hope the Rays’ lease includes that their rent money goes back into the Trop to sustain it and improve…
…nope, there’s no good way to say this. Mark, I need lawyer spin on what I’m trying to say…
I actually don’t know how the lease is structured but, I think you are trying to say that you hope the City of St. Petersburg has to pay some capital cost in exchange for the revenue it gets on ticket sales. (Under the terms of the agreement, the city gets a set price for every ticket used, not every ticket sold. That is why there is good data on the number of people actually in the ballpark every night because the City gets it for accounting purposes and that makes it a public record.)
Hmm…I bet if Fenway had the same legal requirements their false streak would be a complete mockery.
I think the trop is a great place to watch a ballgame. If your kids get bored in the middle of the game there is always something to do. The location of the trop on the other hand is what I question. I am almost certain they could bring in more traffic in Tampa and even though I live in St. Petersburg I would be more than willing to take a drive to see the 5 or 6 games I usually make it to here because I’m a true fan.
Now you’re committed Jason. That is one St. Pete vote for a Tampa park.
Worst stadium in baseball. Put it next to that awful casino called the Hard Rock near I4 and I95…. Then watch that attendance rise, tired of driving to St Pete in rush hour for a 7pm game. On the plus the parking is good, and minor league stadiums have better food.
It certainly isn’t the best yard but I’d challenge you on the worst. Location wise, I’ll take the Trop over the Big A, The Ballpark at Arlington, Comerica Park, New Yankee Stadium, New Shea Stadium, and Computer-Company-Of-The-Moment Park in Oakland.
I’d also say the Trop is a better ballpark than at least Oakland if not others.
If Tampa would build a stadium for the Rays near the state fairgrounds, our family would definitely attend more games. We live in west Orlando and drive 2hrs each way to attend 5-8 games a year. That number would probably double easy!
Actually, St. Pete (very near where the ballpark is) has a lot to do. The Restaurant scene (downtown and Beach Drive) is hopping, and the clubs/bars etc. are packed Thursday through Saturday night.
There are really two problems with the stadium.
1) No one wants to watch a game indoors, but you simply cannot play outdoors in Florida. The only solution is a retractable roof such as they are building in Miami. However, the costs are exorbitant. In Miami, they are budgeting to spend $515 million (probably closer to $600 Million with the inevitable cost overruns) for the smallest stadium in MLB. Suffice to say the same stadium without the retractable roof would cost no more than $400 million. So you are spending an extra $200 million for 15 – 20 games per year.
2) The location sits on the edge of a very spread out population center. Moving the stadium to the other side of St. Pete, or right across the bay in Tampa would help, as this would be more centrally located. However, this is still a big problem as the population is too spread out.
Population density is a good point that isn’t often discussed.
As for the roof, there is a second problem with the retractable roof in this area: humidity. If you close the roof it is incredibly difficult to suck all the humidity out before you turn it into a greenhouse. I have never checked these facts but, I am told they have this problem with the roof in Houston and, rarely close it mid-game.
I had to say something about the whole “can’t play baseball outdoors in Florida” thing. I understand why you might think so if you are from here and havn’t been anywhere else to either play or watch baseball. I actually have been lucky enough to both play baseball in 6 different states (Michigan, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, California, and Florida) and have been to games in all of those same states including the Old Tiger Stadium and Comerica Park in Detroit, the Norfolk Tides stadium in Virginia, the Tennessee Smokies Stadium in Tennessee, Minute Maid Park in Houston, Petco Park in San Diego (which is in my opinion the most beautiful and well done with its beach in the outfield, interesting dimensions, great landscaping, and beautiful city view through the outfield at night) Bakersfield Blaze Stadium in Bakersfield, CA, Sun Life Stadium in Miami, and the Trop here in St. Petersburg. All stadiums are beautiful in my opinion..except the Trop because its the only dome and because of that, you don’t get to see anything outside or the city..which by the way is one of the greatest areas here in the St. Pete and Tampa area that I have had the privilage of ever being. Part of the experience that I love about going to a baseball game is spending a really nice day or night in the city around where the ballpark is, and like what was commented on earlier there should ideally be some interesting or entertaining possible things to do right outside the stadium. The atmosphere of being outdoors at an outside stadium really brings the city to life and makes it a great all around experience and really makes you feel like a part of the city and appreciate it more. There is so much to love about the Tampa and St. Pete area that I just wish a nice outdoor stadium could become a reality (preferrably Tampa, but the original model right on the bay was actually a beautiful idea and would have been really awesome and probably the best in baseball almost like San Francisco where homeruns can get deposited into the bay there for intertubers and canoers to swim after balls). As for the whole thing about it being too hot in Florida to play baseball outside.. its not. Its actually much hotter in Dallas and Houston in the summer than it ever gets here. I experienced it personally. If you think its hot here try and go to a game in Dallas sometime where the Rangers play all summer. Check a weather site if you dont believe me. The temperature routinely gets over 100 degrees there with just as much humidity if not more and they have a record high of 109 degrees. Next time you think 95 is hot just imagine 109 plus whatever the “feels like” number is next to that 109 figure. Probably feels like 120 or so. Anyways most games are played at night anyways and at 7pm its more like mid to upper 80′s at the worst here at that time. So my point is that temperature is not that bad here contrary to what most people think and I really wish we could get a beautiful outdoor stadium. I love baseball and I love the Tampa and St. Pete area so its been my dream for a while that it could happen and I could spend the rest of my life going to games at a beautiful stadium here watching the Rays beat our rivals with all the great competition here in the AL East from the Yankees and Red Sox. There is nothing I love more than watching us beat them.
Fair points about Dallas and Houston Bill. I think Houston is the better comparator because, while it is certainly hotter in Dallas, I don’t know how humid it is. I have heard, from people that know, that there is a clause in the CBA prohibiting day games in Dallas during a majority of the season. That wouldn’t be surprising and isn’t a very fun solution to the problem. Houston has a domed stadium and, given the humidity, keeps it closed a lot.
In my mind, however, the issue has less to do with the heat than it does with the tropical rains. Neither Dallas nor Houston (or even Miami) get the daily afternoon rain in the summer time. One season when I was with the club we counted an absurd number of games that would have been delayed or postponed due to rain. If memory serves, it was around 30 (of the 81). That is a big problem that any new ballpark will have to address.
That is definitely a good point Mark about the rain, except that still isn’t a valid enough reason to spend an extra 200 million on a retractable roof in the greater Tampa Bay area. Especially since Miami is closer to a Tropical climate as far as rainfall goes receiving 58.43 inches annually..than either Tampa or St. Pete, which are classified as Temperate Deciduous Forest and receive only 44.7 inches of rain annually (weather.com 2011). So, this means that if Miami can currently play outside at Sun Life Stadium with no major rain-out problems, then St. Pete or Tampa would be fine.
I am not sure volume of rain indicates whether or not Miami has rainout problems. I’d have to look to see if there is a place I can count delays or postponements but, my impression tells me that they do have significant rainout problems. I also think the rain patterns are relevant. It regularly rains in this area at 4 p.m. in the summer months. Those 4 p.m. storms would be hell for an open-air yard.
Considering that at least 80% of games are played with a 7:05 pm start time I wouldn’t consider that a problem even if there were a large number of extreme storms. Most rainfall in the area comes from convection and doesn’t last long. I have been following Major League Baseball daily since the mid 90′s and playing fantasy with daily roster changes you have to account for things such as rain-outs, stadiums, and daily match-ups and even in Miami there are not many rain-outs. The only issue with baseball outside is that you don’t get the giant 74 degree air-conditioning unit that is a dome. I personally don’t think playing baseball in air conditioning inside a building is what baseball was meant to be. Being a geography major and studying climate extensively as well as being a lifelong passionate baseball player and fan I don’t see any issue regarding the local climate with having a beautiful stadium on the Tampa Bay with open air and a beautiful view of the city or the Bay or both.
A bigger issue than even the stadium right now is our pennant race. Congratulations to James Shields on one of the best seasons for a pitcher in the entire history of the Rays so far this year and another stellar performance last night to out pitch C.C. Sabathia and lead us to victory over the Yankees. I love to see him have so much success after being a great player for the Rays for such a long time. I just hope we can keep him around here for the rest of his career so that when he retires how its looking now he will be possibly one of the greatest Rays of all time. If we can add one great hitter before the trading deadline and maybe a great bullpen guy we can easily beat both the Yankees and Red Sox and make another run at the first World Series title in Rays history, as Joe Maddon so badly wants for this city. Hopefully another pennant run will be exactly what this city needs for all the Rays fans out there to begin filling the stadium and pulling for our team so that owners and residents will welcome the idea of a beautiful new stadium!
I love your enthusiasm but this team needs more than a bat and a bullpen arm to make a run. It is going to be a good summer but, it is a real long shot that we catch either Boston or New York. The numbers on that are pretty daunting.
I just want to mock you for this post, Mark (one year later).
Sorry Bill, you’re off on this one.
having an outdoor stadium in this heat will lead to more than just discomfort for fans and players – it leads to injury.
having played college ball in South Carolina and 2 season in the Marlins organization on the east coast, I can tell you that having a dome is a HUGE blessing and saves muscles, hamstrings, and greatly lessens occurances of abdominal pains.
I know where you are coming from, believe me. I used to be more of a purist until the first time I dehydrated on the field. Ugh.
let’s just airlift the Trop to the fairgrounds and save me about 2 hours of traffic, eh?
Cheers,
9 = 8 = Rays World Series!!
I honestly believe with one more middle of the lineup guy to go between Longoria and Joyce we could beat any team in either league. Especially with Jennings call-up this week. Our pitching is better this year than in 08 when we went to the World Series. We have 6 legitimate excellent starters including Alex Cobb who is pitching great…7 if you include Matt Moore who could easily help us towards the playoffs if needed when hes done dominating the competition down at AAA. We need to trade a couple of our top Minor League pitching prospects for a slugger who can help us win our first World Series. We are really close…maybe one great hitter away.
Not to be Debbie Downer but, the Rays have a run differential of +28. The Yankees have a differential of +135 and the Sox have a differential of +125. The AL leader in runs created, according to Baseball Reference, is Jose Batista at +107. That means, if the Rays added Jose Batista, the best hitter in the game by a long shot, and nothing else changed, they would merely TIE New York in run differential. That’s how big the gap is offensively. Let’s agree, none of the names on the market or potentially on the market are Jose Batista. It just ain’t happening this year.
Given the abomination of the Miami “Dome” stadium, the Trop is indeed a nice place to see a game. Just because something is new, doesn’t make it better. I think there would be little discussion on the Trop if it was near I-4 and 75. I bless the visionaries that made this a full time dome when I am entering the 72 degree comfort from 95 with 95% humidity. If there is to be a new ball stadium in a more convenient location, please make it at least as good of an experience as the Trop. My wife and I drive to our Saturday season ticket seats from Orlando knowing that it will be a comfortable 3 hours watching a great team play.
I am sure the primary focus of any new park will be fan experience. After all the hubbub over the Trop’s fan experience, that is a prerequisite to getting something built.